A Framework for Practice based Improvement of your Sales Pitch

Dheeraj Prasad: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening to all the viewers on b2b sales insights. This is my first podcast of 2022. And just wanted to say a very happy new year to all the viewers. And we have Joe Grieves, who is the Head of Training at Operatix. And he's in London, so Joe, welcome to the show.

Joseph Grieves: Hi, thank you for having me. How are you? Happy new year. When is it okay to stop saying Happy New Year? When do you stop saying Happy New Year to people?

Dheeraj Prasad: Oh, that's a good question. I just wish this goes on forever given the times that we are all living in, so, you know, happiness is the best way to express gratitude and shower that, but you know, just that's the lighter part of it. But specifically, to answer your question. Just about like two weeks after people are coming back to from, you know, to work, maybe like the third week of January where I start? Sort of now is the time.

Joseph Grieves: Easing it out? It's such a good icebreaker, isn't it? Hey, how are you? Happy New Year, two weeks into January? Like, can I still say that?

Dheeraj Prasad: Okay, Joe. So, Joe, I read your article on making sales pitches, you know, as a part of the overall sales readiness, and I know you are working on that at Operatix. Why don't you give a little bit of a background about yourself and Operatix and what are you working on?

Joseph Grieves: Yeah, absolutely. So give me the short version. I originally trained to be an actor in London at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. When I graduated, I wasn't getting any acting work. To be honest with you, I was probably not a very good actor, but I was getting a lot of sales jobs. So I've done a lot of sales jobs over the years, you name it, I've sold it wine, blinds, magazine subscriptions, charity donations, everything you can think of. And then when I realized that Hollywood was never going to be interested, I thought I should probably grow up a little bit and maybe actually make a career out of cells because that was the only thing I was good at, but I actually enjoyed doing. And my partner and I decided to move out of London to move to an area called fleets in Hampshire. And I interviewed lots of different companies. But I interviewed with the company, I'm at now Operatix and immediately got a really good feeling from the people, which I think is probably the most important thing in sales. But just the nature of the company and what they did, it was very exciting. So for Operatix, essentially, we are a lead generation company. So we outsource SDRs to technology companies. So we primarily work with B2B software companies. Originally, when the company first started back in 2012, we had very much in niche working with cybersecurity companies. But now, we've diversified where we work with pretty much any kind of b2b software you can think of. Whether it's a network, cloud data, HR platforms, financial platforms, you name it. We do it all. And from day one, I absolutely loved the job loved the company—the company has seen a lot of growth in the last. Well, the last 10 years, really, we've just gone from strength to strength. We've got around 120 SDRs here in Europe that cover a mere we've got around 60 in the US and we've got around 150 clients globally. And I'm probably a little bit biased when I say this, but we are the best in the business. We like to think of ourselves as the experts when it comes to lead generation. So yeah, that's my story.

Dheeraj Prasad: Oh, sounds really good. Now I can see the relationship between you being an actor earlier in your previous life and also how you focused on role-plays and sales pitch readiness. So how did it all start off from what were the key needs in your team, as you have seen this overall grow between different geographies? What were the key needs that you had as a part of the sales readiness agenda for four pitches?

Joseph Grieves: Yeah, it's a good question. And I think it does kind of relate a little bit to my acting background. In acting, you rehearse, but Before you put on a play or a performance, you rehearse, you have to learn your lines, you have to experiment and try different things to find, you know what's good and what works. And like, acting like any other kind of art, I believe that selling his craft is creative. And like anything, if you want to be good at it, you have to practice it. So role-plays have a huge advantage to salespeople, where if you can practice your sales pitch before you take it out there into the wild, you're going to find things that maybe haven't been thought up, you're going to discover new possibilities, and you're going to be able to really hone your pitch before you take it to market. And that's why I think role plays a very important. And over the years, you know, I've seen a lot of salespeople come and go. And there are two things for me that I think you need in order to pitch readiness, as you say, first of all, the qualities within the person themself. And then the qualities within a sales pitch. So I look back at all the people that have been successful. I kind of thought, well, what is it about these people that makes them so successful? Why are they so good? And I kind of narrowed it down to three things and that was they have confidence. They have courage. And they have enthusiasm. So they're kind of the three qualities that I think you need to have as a salesperson. There are other things. In recent years, I've probably added curiosity to that list. I think that's a very good quality to have. But on those three, I mean, I'll touch on them briefly to answer. So first of all, confidence. I think in order to be successful at sales, you need to believe in yourself. You need to believe that you can do it. And the analogy that I make, it's kind of like a boxer getting into a ring. If you get into a ring with another boxer in your head, you're thinking, oh, well, I'm probably not going to win this fight, then guess what, you're not going to win. And it's the same with sales. If you pick up the phone, you speak to someone and in the back of your head, you're saying, I don't think I'm gonna do this, then you've already lost, you might as well not even bother. So first of all, you've got to have confidence in yourself, you've also got to have confidence in your product, you've got to believe that what you're selling is a good product. Because if you don't believe it's a good product, then the person who you're speaking to probably won't believe in either. And the more you know about your product, the more confident you're going to feel. You've kind of got to know your product inside out. And even though, especially in SDR work, where it's the initial cold call, you're probably not going to go into a huge amount of detail, you do still need to have that background knowledge in order to feel confident. So that's the first thing. I mean, would you agree with that, on confidence?

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely, completely agree. And we've seen this also, as a part of practice, as you mentioned, that when somebody is rehearsing, we have seen their muscle memory overall developing and becomes a very natural part in terms of, you know, expression, which we see in reps as well. So completely agree with what you said.

Joseph Grieves: Absolutely. And then the second point is courage. And really, what I mean by courage is, first of all, it takes a lot of guts to pick up the phone and speak to a complete stranger, and try and pitch them something they've never heard of before and try and convince them that it's a good idea that actually takes a lot of courage. And you'd be surprised how many people say they want to do lead generation, but then when the reality kicks in, they actually feel like, oh, I don't want to do it. So you've got to have the courage to pick up the phone. The biggest thing you need is the courage to stand up for yourself and to stand up for your product. Because we all know nine times out of 10 you speak to someone and you pitch them a product, and then they're going to give you reasons why they don't want it or why they don't want to meet with you. So they're going to say no, no, no. And unless you've got the courage to push back and not take no for an answer within reason, then you're probably not going to do very well. So you need to have the courage to stand up to people and not be afraid of, I guess, rejection in a way. And then one of the fun things or courage is you need to have the courage to experiment and try different things. A lot of salespeople develop their pitch. And, you know, they do it. And it's not working in it, but they keep doing it. And that's because they don't have the courage to try something different. And if something's not working, you've got to think, Okay, well, something's got to change, how could this be better? How can I improve it? And then unless you've got the courage to think outside of the box, and the courage to maybe take an avenue that, yeah, that might be a bit scary to deliver, then you're going to be static, and you're just going to stay in the same place where you're not really making any headway? Would you agree with that?

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely. And I think the point that you're making here is a very good one because it helps reps to come out of their comfort zone. And that is the aspect of, you know, how brave am I to not be in my comfort zone, I can sort of walk out of that. And an experiment, a few things which have not been tried in the past. And selling is a creative craft. And there's no straight line to engaging with customers. One has to be creative and has to experiment and be innovative. So completely agree with you.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah. And then the final quality, I would say, is enthusiasm. And what I mean by that is, well, let me ask you a question. Do you think you can fake enthusiasm?

Dheeraj Prasad: My short answer is no. You can't. It's so apparent. It shows up on the face?

Joseph Grieves: Well, I think it can, and you do it all the time. You do it with your wife, you do it with job interviews, with your friends who are talking about things, you're not interested in your fake enthusiasm all the time in life. However, when you are genuinely enthusiastic about something, it becomes infectious, to the point where people pick up on that enthusiasm, and they get wrapped up in it. And I think when it sounds simple, but if somebody doesn't, at least pretend they're interested in some in what they're talking about that if they can't if they don't sound like this is what gets them out of bed in the morning, then why would anyone want to buy it from you? That's kind of my opinion on that. And am I genuinely enthusiastic about cybersecurity? Probably not, if I was being completely honest with you, but I have to bring that enthusiasm to every conversation. If I'm selling cybersecurity, I have to make people believe that I'm enthusiastic about it. And maybe I am a good actor that I can make people believe I'm enthusiastic. I mean, you don't know that. I'm not enthusiastic about being on your podcast. But I am, I genuinely am. But you know, you've got to at least bring that level of enthusiasm, and not just with people that you're pitching on the phone, per se, with your colleagues as well. There's nothing worse than turning up to work and the person next up and I can't be bothered today, it kind of brings your whole mood down with your, with your clients, with your colleagues just in life. Try and bring a bit of enthusiasm to what you do.

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely. And it shows up in the tone of the voice. And no, it really helps. And it's very infectious, as you said, right. So if and specifically in the virtual digital format of conversations, it becomes so super important because one does not see each other physically. And just the body language and the way that there are certain signals that one gives based on enthusiasm. And one other thing, which you mentioned earlier. And I really like the three C analogy, if you can think of it well, the third part being curiosity. And I know there's a lot of work that has happened in terms of asking curious questions, also, is an act of enthusiasm because you, the person is genuinely interested to know more and shows that enthusiasm.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah. 100%. I mean, in sales, the more questions you can ask, the better off you're going to be. And you do have to be naturally curious to be good at sales. And I think not just curious as in asking prospect questions, but curious about new techniques about new ideas that can help you as a salesperson you have to, you have to be enthusiastic about sales and curious about how you can do better. If you're a salesperson, and you're not listening to podcasts like yours, and like the Operatix podcasts that we have as well. The b2b acceleration podcast if you're not seeking that kind of content. If you're not reading books, if you're not taking additional courses, then you're not showing a high level of enthusiasm for your work and for your craft. So you have to invest in yourself and have enthusiasm for what'd you do?

Dheeraj Prasad: I said, Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the operational side of the sales pitch readiness focus that you have at Operatix. So my question to you is, how long has this program been running? And how do you make this a part of habit for SDRs? to always keep rehearsing and keep practicing?

Joseph Grieves: Yeah, I think, well, you know, sales coaching has been since from the very beginning. And I think you'd be shocked if there was a sales company in the world that didn't, at some point, do role plays or do coaching, in some way using role plays. And the whole purpose of roleplay is to really find out the kinks. Because quite often, whenever you write a sales pitch, the first thing you write is often what I call the vomit draft, where you just regurgitate everything that you've heard, and you stick it on a page. And it's very difficult when you're writing something in your head, you think, yes, this is gold. This is an award-winning script. But then, when it comes to saying it out loud, your tongue starts to do backflips. And you think, oh, okay, maybe this doesn't sound as good as it did in my head. So you need to practice. And before you take it to a customer, you really want to stress, test it, and experiment and try different things. And that kind of brings me to when we work with people on their sales pitches here at Operatix. I did the same exercise where I looked back at all the sales pitches that we didn't do over the years and the ones that were successful. Because we work with so many different companies, you know, I'm helping people write a new sales pitch, every week for a new brand new software company. So I've had a lot of experience. But we've done a lot in the past where I went back and said, Okay, why are these ones so successful? And again, I narrowed it down to three things. And that was they were clear. They were concise, and they were enticing. If you've got all three of those things, then you're on your way to success. So I'll just kind of break those down. So I mean, what do you think? I mean, and these are questions I would always ask myself about my own sales pitch. If I said, is my sales pitch clear? What do you think I mean by that.

Dheeraj Prasad: I'm able to express something which is in line with the expectations of my buyer. That is what I understand in terms of my pitch being clear so that the receiver understands what I'm saying.

Joseph Grieves: Yes, exactly. So I think especially in technology and software, sales, we have a tendency of salespeople to overcomplicate things, unnecessarily, in some cases. And it's very easy to do with technology because you've got all this jargon and all these kinds of abbreviations, and you find yourself spewing out these kinds of obscure terms, right? Oh, it's an interconnected cross platform seam integration software solution that connects your EDI firewall and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you might as well be speaking another language. So when I talk about clear, I mean taking the lowest common denominator approach. If you were to pitch this technology to your partner, or to your parents, or to a 10-year-old, would they kind of understand what you're talking about? And even though often the people you're speaking to, they're very technically minded, they, you know, they know all the jargon and the lingo. When you're cold calling someone, you've kind of caught them out of the blue. They're probably at work. They're trying to do something. Then you've only really got half their attention. So what you're saying has to be so clear and easily understood. And that's actually quite difficult to do for a lot of technology companies. And it's how do we strip it back? How do we take away the things that don't need to be there and I think marketing teams you know, whenever we work with a company and we're working with the marketing team, the marketing team likes to use a lot of flowery languages and you know, buzzwords, and all those kind of things. But you know, when you're selling to someone over the phone got, sometimes you say a sentence and it sounds It's looks great on paper, but we say out loud it, it can sound cheesy or it just sounds too complicated. So it's how do you strip it back? How do you make it clear, and one of the best ways to make a pitch clear is to focus on the benefits rather than the features? Especially in IT, a lot of salespeople will still go in with the features. It does this. It connects to that it will do this. Usually, in a first interaction and the cold call, people don't really care about how the technology works. What they care about is what is it going to do for me? What is the end result? Why should I care? So a great way of making your pitch clear is to focus on the benefits rather than the features. Because as soon as you start going down the feature that and how it works, you get lost in all this kind of technical terminology, that doesn't really mean anything to anyone. So that's the first point. The second one is concise. And what do you think I mean by concise why would you? What do you mean, when I say your pitch needs to be concise? What do you think I mean.

Dheeraj Prasad: The less is more evety? Being really precise in terms of the use of words, short sentences? Too long.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah. Here's another question for you. How long do you think you've got in a cold call? Let's say you've got 20 seconds to make a good impression. But from the moment you start talking about your company, or your product to the point where you make the ask whether that's for a meeting, or what have you, how long do you think you've got.

Dheeraj Prasad: So typically, we've seen, it doesn't. It takes not more than about, like, two to three minutes to keep the attention of a buyer. Absolutely spot on, you know, after that they start to sort of, you know, drifting away from the main agenda. So it's like three minutes, we have seen typically, that we have the attention span.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah. And I would agree with that now, two to three minutes, that doesn't sound like a long time. But if we sat here for two or three minutes in silence, it probably got quite awkward quite quickly. But, you know, time is of the essence, you know, when you're calling someone out of the blue, you call them at work, or these days, you're probably calling them at home where they're trying to work, but they're also trying to deal with the kids in the background. They haven't got time to listen to you bang on all day about how great you think your product is. So you've really got to make your pitch concise. And one of the best ways to do that is to kind of think of it in storytelling terms. If you think about stories throughout history, they follow a very similar pattern, beginning, middle, and end. Or maybe like telling a good joke, because probably a better analogy, you've got the setup and the payoff. But I mean, do you have anyone in your work life for your family who is terrible at telling stories?

Dheeraj Prasad: Oh, yeah, quite a few.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah. Why are they terrible at telling stories?

Dheeraj Prasad: Because they are more factual than something which is personalized, they're not able to sort of emoting with their own life experiences. More factual and more data-driven.

Joseph Grieves: I mean, thankfully, my partner, will never listen to this podcast. So I can say this. She's terrible at telling stories. And the reason for that is because she just goes off on these wild tangents, you know, she starts on one point, then moves to another thing, then moves to another thing. And in my head, all I'm thinking is just get on with it. Get skipped to the end. And that's kind of how I think most people who receive a sales call, Phil, they're just thinking, What do you want? Get on with it. So you've got to be really conscious of people's time. And in order to kind of, there's a couple of ways you could you can measure that you can time yourself when you're doing your pitch, how long does it take you to get from A to B. Or you can also measure it on the page when you write a sales script. Anything longer than a page of A4 is probably too long. You're going to run the risk of boring people. So that's the next point. And then the last point, is it enticing? Is your pitch enticing? And what do you think I mean by that?

Dheeraj Prasad: Yeah. So is it something that is exciting for the person to see the outcomes, rather than just talking about the solution? So what benefits do I really get? What are the end results that I would be seen for?

Joseph Grieves: Absolutely, I mean, really, is what I mean by enticing is there something in your sales pitch? That's going to make someone want to say yes. Because if you don't have that, you might as well not bother. You've got to lot of people in there's got to be something in there that's going to make them want to be interested. And when you talk about the benefits, you've got to where possible, provide specifics. Because you know, if I called you up and I said, I can save your company some money. You'd be like, Okay, how much? So if I call you up, and I say, look, I can save your company 50% on what you're spending for your IT security? Now, that provokes an image in your mind. You're equating that to what you're already doing. You're thinking, Okay, how much am I spending? What is 50%? Of that? Okay, that's quite interesting. So whatever your benefit is, if it's saving people money, how much if it's saving people time? How much give me a number percentage, if I'm making you more secure by how much? Or in what way, something that's tangible, that's going to make people, it's going to make it very difficult for you to say, no, I don't think there's a company in the world if you called any company in the world and said, we can help you generate 50% more revenue. You'd have to be an absolute fool to say. I'm not interested because why wouldn't you be? And obviously, some people do. I mean, there are some people where it doesn't matter what you're saying you could be giving away free gold? And they probably still say no. But you've got a. There's got to be that sparking in your pitch that laws people in makes them want to at least find out more? Would you agree with that?

Dheeraj Prasad: 120% on this? Absolutely. So you know, and that is where the call to action and why sales reps keep it very open-ended? Because you know, they don't come up with a very strong value proposition, which is enticing enough for the buyer to go and say yes, let's go.

Joseph Grieves: Yeah, and bringing it back to the topic about roleplay is, you know when I'm doing role plays with people, I'm trying to identify all of those things. Is it clear? Is it concise? Is it enticing? And if we're missing one of those elements, it's how do we introduce it? I think the other thing about roleplay is a big part of sales is objection handling. And when you're doing roleplay, you've got to be stress-tested in terms of objections. Now, a lot of people think all the objections are just going to come at the end of the pitch. But that's not always true. People might throw your objections at the beginning of your picture in the middle of your pitch. So when I do a roleplay with someone, I try to throw them curveballs. And that's not for me just to be a deck for a reason for the sake of it. I'm trying to help you anticipate maybe what you hadn't already anticipated. So throwing you curveballs that may be asking you a question where I know the answer isn't in your pitch. And you see people kind of looking like, oh my god, where's the answer, and they're looking for something that isn't there. But once we've kind of finished, then they can say, if someone does ask me that question in the future, I need to be prepared for that. So that gives them a thought process of okay, I hadn't thought of that. I need to include it. And with objections as well, its objection handling is probably the area where most SDRs fall down in the beginning because they're just not prepared for it. They're not accustomed to it. So the art of roleplay is to create a realistic enough scenario, where you're giving them all the potential outcomes or the potential blockers that are going to come up so that eventually, when they do get into a live environment, they're ready for it. They kind of know what's coming. But they'll always be things they weren't expecting.

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely. So doing this adds at a scale of 100 plus SDRs that you have, you know, just not in Europe and between Europe and US? Almost, that you said? How do you operationalize this at scale? And is this a part of a standard program that you have? Which you pull out?

Joseph Grieves: It's a very good question. Um, probably about two years ago, I was able to kind of do a lot of it myself. But in recent Well, in recent years, we've brought in a new role to Operatix, which is what we call the mentor role. So all of our new SDRs, as well as having their onboarding and initial training with me, they're also assigned a mentor who's kind of like their personal coach, their personal buddy. And the thing about all these mentors is they are still doing the job. They're still an SDR. And my personal belief is that you can't teach someone to be an SDR unless you're willing to do it yourself. And I get challenged quite often by some of our guys, you know, people say, Oh, this campaign is too difficult. It's too hard. And my answer is always the same. It's, well, it's not too hard. You just haven't figured it out yet. But if anyone's really resistant, they say, Okay, well, Joe, when you do it, then I say, give me a number. And thankfully, I think the last sort of five or six times I've done it. I've managed to book a meeting in front of someone, I think, might have had a bit of egg on my face if the meeting when I was challenged to it. But I'm a true believer that, you know, if you're going to train someone to be an SDR, you should be willing to do it yourself at the drop of a hat. And, you know, without our mentors, we've got people who are actually still doing it so that they're in the trenches, they know what it's like. But you need someone there who, at any point, you can say, Hey, can I try my pitch out on you? Can I test this out? And can you throw me a couple of curveballs to see what happens? Because you always need an outside eye. You need someone else's perspective. If you're in your own little bubble, and it is difficult now that everyone's working remote, you know, you're kind of on your own. The benefit of being in the office is you listen to other people around you, you'd hear someone's pitch, like what I'm gonna steal that, or you'd I would hear someone else, maybe not do something so great. And I'd kind of take it upon myself to go over and be like, Hey, I wouldn't say that, or I would do this. And that was even before I was in my head of training role I'd go over probably because of thinking about me. People used to hate things I'd go over, like your pictures. Rubbish needs work. I would never say that bluntly. Or maybe I do. But yeah, I think in answer to your question at scale, you've got to have more leaders in the business who are willing to listen to and coach calls. And, you know, a lot of management, you know, people who move up into management, they almost they can lose touch with how it's done. And they almost, they're unable to coach because they simply don't have the time that deals with clients, they're dealing with admin, they're dealing with finances and all these things. And there's, you know, lots of things that will prevent managers from actually coaching their people. So I think, you know, if you're in a sales organization, you need to have some sort of a function, whether it's kind of like myself and a head of the training role, or like what we've recently done, bring in mentorship programs, where people who are still doing it, and they're still willing to do it, or teaching other people. That's how you do it at scale. And obviously, technology like yours, and like, refract and gone Call Recording analysis software. Those things really, really help to up your game when it comes to coaching.

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely. And you do this just not for onboarding use cases, but ongoing as well as a part. A new product or maybe a new client that you're onboarding. So it's an exercise.

Joseph Grieves: Always Yeah, always. I mean, you know, I spend most of my days just listening to calls. And, you know, as an SDR manager, the only way you're ever going to help people get better is by listening to the calls. If you're sitting there as a manager scratching their head, saying, Why aren't my salespeople hitting their number? And you're not listening to their calls? I honestly don't know what you're doing. Because and, you know, in, whether its role plays at the beginning of great but eventually you do have to Get on the phone, and you could do 100 role plays, but that still probably doesn't fully prepare you for speaking to a real-life person. So the real test is actually saying its prospects. And, you know, sometimes it might not work, sometimes you might fail, but without someone giving you some constructive criticism, then it's difficult when you're on your own to be like, I don't know, what's working, or what's not. So you've got to enable your, your SDRs to constantly improve, and your sales pitch, you know, it's like a great piece of art, it's never finished, it can always be better. And you should be looking for those opportunities. And as an SDR, you should be reaching out to your managers and say, let's listen to my calls, listen to my pitch, tell me what you think. As a manager, you should be trying to listen to as many calls as you can because that's the only way you help people get better.

Dheeraj Prasad: Absolutely. How do you really measure outcomes on this? Is there a way that you are correlating this to actual sales results? Or?

Joseph Grieves: That's a good question, I think, you know, it's kind of a chicken in the egg.

Dheeraj Prasad: Sort of scenario.

Joseph Grieves: Usually, if someone's doing really well, if someone's booking lots of meetings for our clients, and those meetings are going head, I kind of don't care what they're saying, as long as they're making money. As long as our clients are making money, everyone's happy, fine. When you're looking at the kind of monthly results you're looking at, people are at the bottom or people in the middle. Now there's a theory that you know, you should focus on people in the middle because you want to get them up to the top. But the people at the bottom are kind of split into two categories. You've got the people who are brand new, they need a lot of coaching. So you should be identifying those as people who need help, then you've got the people at the bottom who've probably been there for quite a while and probably shouldn't be there. But, you know, we're a very people-centric business. People are our biggest asset. They're kind of our IP, if you like. And we always like to give people the benefit of the doubt. And as long as I can see someone's putting in the effort. And as long as people are willing to accept help, then I will try and help them. Unfortunately, not everyone is good at sales, just like not everyone's going to be a Hollywood actor. Not everyone's going to be a professional footballer or brain surgeon. There are some people who, with all the best well, and all the best coaching in the world, they're just never going to get it. But for the people who can and are willing, then it's about identifying that and the simplest way of doing that is looking at someone's results. If they're not hitting a target, there's clearly a problem. And we need to fix it.

Dheeraj Prasad: Yes, absolutely. Joe, it's been a really insightful conversation, great insights from you. And you know, we've heard a lot of analogies in terms of pitch practice and to the world of sports. But your analogy in terms of acting was a really interesting one. And it's really about role plays, right. And we all do that all the time. And just doing that in front of the mirror, doing this in front of a coach or a mentor, or doing this in front of any kind of technology, which helps you to give you instant feedback or reflections, is always a way to improve continuously.

Joseph Grieves: Absolutely. I practiced this podcast in the mirror this morning.

Dheeraj Prasad: It's all about it's all in mind, and just practicing this in a safe zone really helps to improve confidence. It helps to build courage. And it also helps to build enthusiasm, which I'm also relating to curiosity. So the three C's is profound. And also the framework that you talked about the CCE framework in terms of clarity, conciseness, and enticing. And if you have all these elements in a sales pitch, why can't we be a rockstar actor or a rockstar salesperson?

Joseph Grieves: Absolutely. Pleasure. Thank you so much for Thank you for having me on. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Dheeraj Prasad: Likewise, Joe, thank you so much.